BlueVine Review
- Date Established
- 2013
- Location
- Redwood City, CA
Pros
- Suited to small businesses
- Relaxed borrower qualifications
- Short application process
- Typical time to funding: 2 – 7 days
- Excellent customer support
Cons
- Potentially expensive terms and fees
- Line of credit unavailable in some states
Overview
BlueVine, an online lending service, was founded in 2013 after the founder watched his father, a physical therapist, struggle with inconsistent cash flow due to slow payouts by insurance companies. It shouldn’t come as a surprise, then, that the company offers a number of services intended to help merchants overcome cash flow problems.
In particular, BlueVine offers invoice factoring — a type of business financing for B2B businesses in which unpaid invoices are sold at a discount. And if you don’t process invoices, BlueVine also offers traditional lines of credit.Â
Invoice factoring often has a poor reputation because some factoring companies carry high fees, confining contracts, and inconvenient termination clauses. However, funders like BlueVine have streamlined and de-complicated the process. These new invoice financing services tend to be much more flexible than their old-school predecessors. You have more control over which invoices you choose to finance, and you won’t have to sign any long-term contracts or pay a bunch of extra fees.
BlueVine’s fees can get a little expensive, but despite the potential for high costs, BlueVine offers some fantastic services. They’re easy to qualify for, convenient, and useful for merchants who struggle with cash flow problems. Interested in learning more? Read on for the details!
Table of Contents
Services Offered
BlueVine offers:
Borrower Qualifications
BlueVine borrower qualifications vary by product. Note that these borrower qualifications are not comprehensive; when you fill out an application with BlueVine, they consider more than the information below when making a decision about whether you’re eligible for funding. However, if you meet the below requirements, you have a good chance of qualifying.
Invoice Factoring
Invoice factoring is available for B2B businesses. To qualify, you must have eligible unpaid invoices, as well as meet the requirements below:
| Time in business: | 3+ months |
| Personal credit score: | 530+ |
| Revenue: | Â $100,000+ per year |
Additionally, you must be US-based. You must have B2B invoices with clients who process at least $10M in annual revenue. Invoice factoring is available in all 50 states.
Six Month Line Of Credit (Flex6)
Flex6 lines of credit have a repayment period of six months. This product is available to businesses that meet these requirements:
| Time in business: | 6+ months |
| Personal credit score: | 600+ |
| Revenue: | $120,000+ per year |
Flex6 is not currently available in Kentucky, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Dakota, South Dakota, Tennessee, and Vermont. You cannot take out a Flex6 line of credit in New York, Nebraska, Maryland, and Washington DC, unless your business is an LLC or corporation.
This product is available to most industries, except for financial services and nonprofits.
12 Month Line Of Credit (Flex12)
Flex12 lines of credit have a repayment period of 12 months. To qualify for Flex12, your business must be an LLC or a corporation; sole proprietors are not eligible. In most cases, you’ll need a credit score of 650 or above, but BlueVine is a little more flexible if your annual revenue is over $900,000:
| Time in business: | 2+ years |
| AND | |
| Personal credit score: | 650+ |
| Revenue: | $450,000+ per year |
| OR | |
| Personal credit score: | 620+ |
| Revenue: | $900,000+ per year |
Flex12 is not currently available in Kentucky, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Dakota, South Dakota, Tennessee, and Vermont.
Most industries are eligible, but nonprofit organizations and businesses in financial services are not.
Rates & Fees
BlueVine offers invoice factoring and traditional lines of credit.
Invoice Factoring
Here are the stats for BlueVine’s invoice factoring service:
| Credit facility size: | $20,000 – $5,000,000 |
| Advance rate: | 85% – 95% |
| Discount rate: | 0.3% – 1% per week |
| Max overdue account: | 13 weeks (91 days) |
| Additional fees: | $15 wire transfer fee (no charge for ACH transfers) |
| Contract length: | N/A |
| Monthly minimums: | No |
| Factor all invoices: | No |
| Recourse or non-recourse: | Recourse |
| Notification or non-notification: | Both (see below) |
For invoice factoring, BlueVine offers credit facilities up to $5,000,000, though the amount your business is eligible for will depend on a number of factors.
How Does Invoice Factoring With BlueVine Work?
When you are approved to do business with BlueVine, the company will set up a lockbox bank account — a bank account in your name, which they have access to. You will update your customers with the new payment information, so when the customer deposits their payment, BlueVine can take their cut before sending the rest along to you. If you didn’t request an advance on a certain invoice, BlueVine will simply send all the money along to you when the customer pays.
Because the bank account is in your name, the customer will not know about the money advanced to you. However, BlueVine might offer you a larger line of credit with the stipulation that they are allowed to notify your clients about the arrangement. This is called notification factoring. Some merchants are concerned that it will reflect poorly on their business if the customer knows they are using an invoice factoring service. Truth is, factoring is so old and commonplace that most clients, especially larger clients, are used to such arrangements. Regardless, the choice is yours.
To redeem an invoice for cash, your invoice has to meet these requirements (via the FAQ):
- The service or product was completed, delivered and accepted by your customer
- The customer is based in the US or Canada
- The customer is a business (not a consumer)
- The invoice face value is higher than $500
- The payment term is shorter than 13 weeks (91 days)
- The due date is at least 1 week away
When you request money, BlueVine will advance you a maximum of 85% – 95% of the invoice. When the invoice is paid by your customer, you’ll get the reserve of the remaining 5% – 15%, minus the fees that have accrued.
Here’s an example:
You redeem a $1,000 invoice. BlueVine advances you $850. Your customer pays you in four weeks, so there is a $40 fee. At the end of the process, you’ll get $110 from the reserve.
BlueVine does not charge application fees, maintenance fees, origination fees, or lockbox fees for their invoice factoring. They also do not require a long-term contract or termination fees.
There are only two potential kinds of extra fees you can incur: bank wire fees and late fees. The bank wire fee is $15, but can be avoided by using free ACH transfers. Late fees are incurred after a two-week grace period. If you or your customers don’t pay before then, the fee is 2% to 3% of the amount due, with a daily recurring fee between 0.2% and 0.3% until the debt is settled.
Line Of Credit
BlueVine offers two lines of credit, Flex6 and Flex12. Flex6 carries a draw term length of six months, whereas Flex12 carries a term length of 12 months. Because its longer term length makes it riskier, most businesses will not qualify for Flex12. Check out the borrower qualifications above to learn which product you might be eligible for.
Here are the rates and fees for both products:
| Credit facility size: | $6,000 – $5,000,000 |
| Term length: | 6 or 12 months |
| Interest rate: | 0.3% – 1.5% per week (Flex6) 1.5% – 6.5% per month (Flex12) |
| Draw fee: | 1.6% – 2.5% per draw |
| APR: | 15% – 78% |
| Personal guarantee: | Yes |
Both lines of credit currently cap at a maximum of $5,000,000, but the amount you can borrow will depend on the strength of your business.
Once approved, you can draw funds up to your available credit line at any time you want. Be aware that there is a draw fee of 1.6% – 2.5% whenever you request funds from your credit line. Otherwise, BlueVine does not charge any extra fees.
Repayments are made in 26 weekly installments if you have Flex6, or 12 monthly installments if you have Flex12. Regardless, you can repay early at any time. If you do so, you’ll only have to repay the interest that has accrued up to that point. BlueVine does not charge a prepayment penalty.
Application Process
The application for both services is simple: create an account via the website and answer some basic questions about yourself and your business. You’ll also have to provide either the most recent three months of bank statements or allow read-only access to your bank account.
You’ll have the option of hooking up your accounting or invoicing software, but it isn’t required. If you’re interested in invoice factoring, but don’t use software compatible with BlueVine, you’ll be able to create invoices right in BlueVine’s interface. Currently, the company works with:
Once you give your phone number, expect a call from a BlueVine rep, who is there to walk you through the process and answer any questions.
Approval is based on a number of factors. Your credit score is a consideration, but they also look at factors such as social media presence, business history, transaction volume, and the creditworthiness of your customers.
According to the BlueVine website, your initial approval for either service will take about 24 hours. When approved, you can begin drawing from your credit line or selling invoices immediately. Money transfers normally take one to three business days. However, if you’re selling an invoice from a customer unfamiliar to BlueVine, expect a 24-hour delay, because BlueVine has to assess your customer’s creditworthiness.
Sales & Advertising Transparency
BlueVine provides excellent transparency. They provide a video explaining the invoice factoring service, which is always good to see when you’re dealing with a potentially confusing factoring model. Additionally, they fully disclose all rates and fees, there’s an easy-to-understand payments calculator on the pricing page, and there are not one, but two FAQs.
The customer service is similarly transparent and willing to answer questions.
Customer Service & Technical Support
Customer service is available by phone Monday through Saturday. You also have the option to email BlueVine via the contact page. For less formal contact methods, the company maintains accounts on Twitter and Facebook.
The general consensus (backed up by my own experiences) is that BlueVine reps are very responsive, whichever way you choose to contact them. And if you’re not in the mood to talk to somebody, they also have an FAQ for general questions before signup, as well as one for customers already using their services.
Negative Reviews & Complaints
BlueVine has a truly impressive track record regarding complaints.
The company is accredited by the Better Business Bureau with an A+ rating and very few complaints. Additionally, BlueVine also has a presence on the Intuit QuickBooks app center and TrustPilot, among other places. With few exceptions, the reviews for BlueVine are very positive. For example, on the QuickBooks app center, BlueVine has almost 300 reviews, all but three of which are rated 4- or 5-stars. On TrustPilot, 95% of their almost 700 reviews were granted 4- or 5-stars (83% rated 5 stars, 12% rated 4 stars).
It’s also worth noting that BlueVine is extremely proactive in responding to negative reviews and fixing complaints when possible. This level of service goes above and beyond that of many of their competitors.
Although the service is highly received, a few customers still have some criticisms and complaints:
- Denials: Some reviewers were frustrated to learn that they had been denied for funding, even though they met all the requirements listed on BlueVine’s website. A few were further frustrated because they felt they were not given a clear reason why they were rejected.
- Expensive fees: The fees may be a little higher than some customers would like. To see how BlueVine’s rates and fees compare to their competitors, take a look at our invoice factoring comparison chart or our business line of credit comparison chart.
- Rejected draws: Some customers are frustrated to learn that requested draws from their credit line had been rejected. BlueVine monitors your revenue and debts, and will not let you borrow if it looks like you cannot repay based on the information they have. Unfortunately, this can happen at inconvenient times for some businesses.
- Notification factoring: A few reviewers were disappointed to learn that they didn’t qualify for a large enough credit facility without notification services (meaning, BlueVine alerted their customers to the factoring arrangement).
Positive Reviews & Testimonials
As stated above, customer reviews for BlueVine are overwhelmingly positive. Most customers rate BlueVine 4- or 5-stars, and have very few criticisms of the service overall.
In addition to a large number of customer reviews, BlueVine has been extensively covered by news sources, including (recently)Â TechCrunch, Forbes, Huffpost, PYMNTS.com, Crowdfund Insider, American Banker, and others.
In general, merchants like that BlueVine’s services solve cash flow problems. Waiting around for your clients to pay can be hard on your cash flow and, as a result, on your business. Having the option of getting an advance on your invoices, even if it costs a bit of money, offers significant help and peace of mind. Likewise, their lines of credit can be used any time you have the need for extra cash, whatever the purpose may be.
Additionally, customers like the:
- Prompt customer service
- Transparent advertising
- Easy application process
- Fast time to funding
Interested in contributing to the conversation? Leave a message with your thoughts in the comments!
Final Verdict
If your business struggles with cash flow, BlueVine’s invoice factoring or line of credit might be the perfect solution.
Although BlueVine is not the only — or the first — business funder to offer invoice factoring without long-term contracts, monthly minimums, and extra fees, BlueVine is one of the most accessible invoice factors available. If you are interested in factoring a lot of invoices, you may be able to find better rates elsewhere; however, BlueVine’s invoice factoring service is a good choice for B2B businesses looking for casual, hassle-free factoring.
Likewise, while this funder’s line of credit is not the only, or the cheapest, product on the market, BlueVine’s borrower qualifications are some of the lowest we’ve come across, which means that your business might qualify for a line of credit from BlueVine if it doesn’t qualify elsewhere.
Interested in seeing how BlueVine stacks up against the competition? Check out our invoice factoring comparison page and line of credit comparison page.
Bianca Crouse
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24 Comments
Responses are not provided or commissioned by the vendor or bank advertiser. Responses have not been reviewed, approved or otherwise endorsed by the vendor or bank advertiser. It is not the vendor or bank advertiser's responsibility to ensure all posts and/or questions are answered.
Organization Name: Campbell & Co.
When I first contacted BlueVine I couldn’t have been more impressed with their process. Even when a slight hiccup happened and I couldn’t understand something, they were responsive to my concerns and handled it professionally. They have always touched base immediately and addressed any concerns I have had. Their funding has made it possible for my company to expand some business much more rapidly than otherwise would have been possible and whenever I need some extra assistance they are always willing to work with me. I am a big fan of problem solvers and this company does exactly that!Thank you!!!!!!!!!!
Organization Name: Tax Dynasty Financial Services
The customer service is very rude. I contacted this company to inquire on their services and the rep was pushy and didn’t want to provide any information unless I had started an application. Visiting the site I was eager to start working with BlueVine but after that phone call I will direct my clients to another lender.
Organization Name: BlueVine
Angelle,
We’re sorry to hear that you were dissatisfied with our service. We always strive to offer the best experience for current and potential clients. We would like to learn more about your experience. Please call us at 888-21609619 or send us an email at support@bluevine.com.
The BlueVine Team
Organization Name: Anchor Grille
BlueVine has been such a great help to me! I recommend, Fast, easy, and great rate! They made it possible!
Organization Name: Magic Wand Carpet Cleaning LLC
I thought they were great when I first started with them, but quickly found they are extremely unreliable. They will not hold up their end of the deal… they’ll place your account on hold, won’t allow you to draw, etc. I don’t like doing business with people who can’t follow through on their obligations like Bluevine. I always make my payments to them, and they still freeze my account. I do not recommend!
Organization Name: Seo Smooth
Paid off early with credit card transfer. Make at least 25% more than when they first approved me. They force closed my account due to paying off early. This is the business version of a payday loan, stay away. Also, they didn’t report my $10,000 loan to D&B.
This comment refers to an earlier version of this review and may be outdated.
Organization Name: BlueVine
Vincent,
We’re sorry to hear that you were disappointed with our service. Our policies and decisions are based on a client’s finances, including obligations with other lenders. When there are meaningful changes in a customer’s financial situation, especially if it involves new or previously undisclosed debt obligations, a client’s account is subject to a review.
We would be willing to discuss this further. Please call us at 888-21609619 or send us an email at support@bluevine.com.
The BlueVine Team
This comment refers to an earlier version of this review and may be outdated.
Organization Name: JC Systems, Inc
I currently have a BlueVine account with my business. I am disappointed in BlueVine because during the winter months the business slows down and that is when I need help. BlueVine shut me down without warning when I needed them the most. I am currently paying off this credit line and I will get rid of it once it is paid off. Once Spring and Summer hit, I will try to pay them off sooner so I can put them behind me. If you are interested in a good company with a higher lines of credit, I recommend OnDeck or Kabbage. They have been real helpful during these winter months and I have never been shut down by them. They are always there!
This comment refers to an earlier version of this review and may be outdated.
Organization Name: BlueVine
Cindy,
We appreciate your feedback. We pride ourselves on being a responsible lender.
Our underwriters periodically review any changes to a client’s financial situation, including any increases in a client’s debt obligations. We would be happy to discuss your case in detail. Please contact us at (888) 216-9619 or send us an email at feedback@bluevine.com so we can discuss further.
The BlueVine Team
This comment refers to an earlier version of this review and may be outdated.
I would steer clear of Bluevine. Their dashboard is useless. Our company had been using them for 6 months with no issues and then all of the sudden, with $14k available on our dashboard, they denied funding. They had a script of reasons, but none that were valid. I recommend Kabbage. Bluevine draws on your account every week, Kabbage draws monthly. Feel free to reach out to me for more details.
This comment refers to an earlier version of this review and may be outdated.
Dear Mr. Abare,
We appreciate the feedback. We reviewed your account multiple times and unfortunately, there were specific issues that led to changes in your status based on policies and regulations that our account managers have explained to you in private. Please call us at (888) 216-9619 with any additional questions or concerns.
Eric Sager
Chief Revenue Officer
BlueVine
This comment refers to an earlier version of this review and may be outdated.
As a seasoned financial professional with multiple post-graduate degrees, several certifications, and nearly 40 years in the industry, I am not so easily ‘wowed’. However, I was looking for a Line of Credit for a client who was difficult to place and had a merchant loan they wanted to payoff in exchange for a Line of Credit which should be more flexible and cost less. I was directed to BlueVine by someone I trusted, and since their online reviews and BBB rating were good, I contacted them. As evidenced by my 1-star rating (I would give them a negative if I could), my experience did not mirror the ratings I had read. This is what I encountered:1) The representative was pushy and kept setting unrealistic deadlines on the ‘offer’. As a 3rd party, I have to have time to review the offer and discuss it with my client, then get a payoff from their current lender. 2 working days is hardly sufficient for that to happen in a responsible manner. When someone is deliberating a loan in the tens of thousands of dollars range, attempting to pressure them into a snap decision is not terribly professional. The lender should be more than willing to provide sufficient time and information for a quality review and responsible decision including allowing an attorney to review the contract.2) The representative misrepresented and withheld critical information throughout the process. Some of the more egregious omissions were: a) He said they needed a bank connection to check my client’s records . When I asked how this was done, he said my client had to give him “the username and password for the bank”. I’m sorry, but I don’t think so. That would be paramount to giving them carte blanche to wipe out her accounts. After lots of teeth gnashing over the course of a week, I found that the company had some secure encrypted software they used where that information was entered but to which no one at BlueVine had actual access. Which was fine, but why the representative never once imparted that information to me still confuses me. b) The representative quoted me an initial rate of 21%, but each time I spoke with him the rate went up and up and up. I actually got no fewer than 9 different rate quotes for the same amount of money for the same period. Unfortunately, he refused to provide anything in writing for me to take to my client and her attorney for review so he could simply change the rate every time we spoke and then blame me for having a bad memory. Which he did – repeatedly. Now, I may be old, but I’m not yet senile and, as someone who fights the IRS on a daily basis and wins, I am exceptionally good at taking notes. So, NO, I didn’t ‘mishear’, ‘misunderstand’ or ‘misremember’. He simply changed the rates – every time. c) I asked, multiple times, if the rates he was quoting were in terms of APR (Annual percentage rate) or EIR (Effective interest rate). He assured me – repeatedly – he was quoting me rates in APR. Now the reason this is critically important is because an APR is divided by the number of pay periods in a year and THAT is the interest rate that is applied to the balance due for that pay period. The EIR, on the other hand, is the total percent of interest paid when all is said and done. So, for example, if the interest rate is 12% APR, that means the loan will be charged 1% per month on the balance. However, assuming the loan is paid as agreed and is a 12-month loan, the EIR – the actual total amount of interest paid would be 6% over the course of that year. So the representative telling me 21% was APR was also telling me that my client would be paying 10.5% total. Since he had ‘guaranteed’ my client would be paying them less than her current lender was costing, this seemed reasonable. Unfortunately, when all was said and done, the rate they were offering my client, which I finally got in writing, was, in fact, 46% APR! That is OUTRAGEOUS! In most states, that would be considered Usury and illegal. What happened to the guarantee of ‘lower cost than the current lender’? This was actually nearly DOUBLE the cost of the company’s current merchant loan.This was nothing more or less than a CLASSIC example of ‘bait and switch’ – “Promise a less expensive item to get the customer in the door and then, when they’re “hooked” switch it for something else and hope they don’t notice. That is exactly what they did and, in so doing, they wasted 3 weeks of my time that could have been better spend finding my client what is needed rather than going round and round with this company. In addition to the pressuring, misrepresentations and misinformation is the fact that they are re-inventing accepted financial terminology so they can mislead people. “Simple Interest Rate” is a term known in the industry as a rate applied to a principal amount ONE TIME as opposed to “Compound Interest”. However, BlueVine is using the term “Simple Interest Rate” to refer to EIR and then telling people it’s APR hoping that the borrower won’t notice they are actually paying is an astronomical interest rate they would NEVER consider on a credit card or home loan.While I don’t necessarily approve of the rates being charged by Merchant Account Lenders, at least they aren’t trying to say it’s anything other than what it is and they are completely transparent in their dealings with potential borrowers. If Blue Vine had been honest, open, and transparent, I still wouldn’t have let my client take the loan, but, I wouldn’t be giving them a 1 star rating either. I simply cannot, in good conscience, recommend this company to any business looking for financing, nor, given what I have experienced, do I feel it would be ethical for me to do so.
This comment refers to an earlier version of this review and may be outdated.
Kimberly,
I appreciate your feedback and am sorry to hear about your negative experience. You raised very important concerns and questions.
Communicating clearly with our customers is very important to us at BlueVine and we obviously failed in that regard in this case.
I would appreciate the time to discuss this case with you further. Please contact me directly at eric.sager@bluevine.com and we can find a time that is convenient for you.
Eric Sager
Chief Revenue Officer
BlueVine
This comment refers to an earlier version of this review and may be outdated.
Very Happy with the flex line of credit easy to use no problems at all.Surprised for the bad reviews. Is cheaper than a CC advance and I got approved in 24 hrs.
This comment refers to an earlier version of this review and may be outdated.
Awesome company to business with you guys! You make alternative lending simple, straight forward and easy to access. You have stepped up when traditional banks didn’t understand how our business worked and have helped us continue to grow! Hats off to a job well done! Many thanks!
This comment refers to an earlier version of this review and may be outdated.
HORRIBLE COMPANY! Ridiculous interest rates. Theyll kill your line of credit at anytime. Then youll have to repay your ENTIRE loan before you can draw from it. Even if youve been in good standing with them. Customer service is terrible. Beware. Do NOT take credit from this company.
This comment refers to an earlier version of this review and may be outdated.
Dear Ms. Kwak,
Thank you for your feedback. However, we sincerely feel that your comments about BlueVine are unfair and are based on inaccurate information. We would like the opportunity to clarify the issues you’ve raised about our service. Please give us a call at (888) 216-9619 or send us an email at feedback@bluevine.com.
Respectfully,
Eric Sager,
Chief Revenue Officer, BlueVine
This comment refers to an earlier version of this review and may be outdated.
Please if you are a minority and a small business owner. Stay away from this company becuase their actions don’t match with their promises they pre on innocent business owners I will never recommend this company to no one they don’t keep their promise they scam you
This comment refers to an earlier version of this review and may be outdated.
Dear RA,
Thank you for your feedback. We pride ourselves in standing by our promises. Please give us a call at (888) 216-9619 or send us an email at feedback@bluevine.com so we can discuss your account in more detail.
Sincerely,
Eric Sager,
Chief Revenue Officer, BlueVine
This comment refers to an earlier version of this review and may be outdated.
I was originally a factoring client of bluevine and the experience was positive. They started to offer flex credit (creditline) and I started using that service, initially with good results. But over time, the Bluevine became completely unreliable and vague in their reasoning for not allowing credit or certain credit limits.I have been using Fundbox since, and without incident.
This comment refers to an earlier version of this review and may be outdated.
Dear Eric,
Thank you for your feedback. We are sorry to hear that you became dissatisfied with our service. We would like to learn more about your experience. Our goal is to be transparent in working with our clients and to be clear about our underwriting policies. Your insights could help us find ways to improve our services. Please give us a call at (888) 216-9619 or send us an email at feedback@bluevine.com.
Sincerely,
Eric Sager,
Chief Revenue Officer, BlueVine
This comment refers to an earlier version of this review and may be outdated.
I was really surprised to see bad reviews I went through the process before reading any reviews and found it extremely easy and efficient.credit line was available the day I applied I don’t have awesome credit and we have only been in business for 5 years. The rates are reasonable in comparison with other companies. I would highly recommend them especially if you’re using another company currently for cash flow gaps the rates are much better with this company.
This comment refers to an earlier version of this review and may be outdated.
Very short minded process. They are absolutely no help for a seasonal business. Jan thru May I make 90% of my income. Oct thru Dec gets a little dry. I was requesting a short period credit line to help loosen the stress, but because last 3 months didn’t look so hot, I got denied. Told to retry in 6 months. Crazy!!! At that point I’ll probably get accepted based on last three months but then the future 6 months when I have to make the payments will be during my rough season!!! Makes no sense!!!
This comment refers to an earlier version of this review and may be outdated.
If your credit is not very high, don’t bother. They are just like every other bank. I’ve pumped over a million dollars through the business and all that with just one CC and only $1500 credit. Huge contracts in the pipeline and even attached LoI’s. Just received a standard “credit score too low” reply even though they say they consider other factors. Just a big time suck.
This comment refers to an earlier version of this review and may be outdated.